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Post by Sheep2 on Feb 23, 2022 20:40:15 GMT
Bit cheeky. can we have pictures of a U.S. city from that time? Any one will do. |
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Post by Felice Landry on Feb 23, 2022 20:46:52 GMT
Taken at 11:08  |
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Post by crankcaller on Feb 23, 2022 20:56:34 GMT
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Post by crankcaller on Feb 23, 2022 21:06:38 GMT
Thundersnow here and a big pile of lightning.
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Post by Sheep2 on Feb 23, 2022 21:25:06 GMT
Very very frightening
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Post by Felice Landry on Feb 23, 2022 21:26:48 GMT
Fandango?
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Post by Chumbles on Feb 23, 2022 21:29:28 GMT
Bit cheeky. can we have pictures of a U.S. city from that time? Any one will do. As Russia's current Tsar, Putin, is basing his causus belli on the completely bogus claim that the Ukraine is historically part of Russia it isn't 'cheeky', but a reasonable rebuttal of that claim. As far as the age of American cities are concerned, I wasn't aware that the USA is seeking to annexe parts of the Ukraine. I am perplexed by your apparent defence of Putin's continued attempts to re-establish the Soviet empire... he is going to be the direct cause of many thousands of deaths, an entirely morally repugnant act. |
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Post by Felice Landry on Feb 23, 2022 22:03:14 GMT
In defence of Sheep* I think they were highlighting the silliness of the propaganda rather than supporting their paymaster Putin.
*Wow, what a strange thing to write.
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Post by amipal on Feb 23, 2022 22:22:19 GMT
Can I be a Dwarf Wizard? I can also do a mean David Bowie impersonation and I dance like James Brown. What's not to like? A “Dwarf Wizard”? Listen to yourself… |
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Post by Sheep2 on Feb 23, 2022 22:30:04 GMT
It's a bit more complex than that.
Eastern Ukraine was part of Russia until Khrushchev transferred it in the 1960s.
Until 2014 the population of the east was mostly Russian speaking.
It's more complex than that though due to the population transfers pre and after WW2. It's not really the case that you can say parts of eastern Ukraine are historically and invisibly Ukrainian. Or parts of the west Lviv was part of Austria-Hungary, Russian, Polish and Ukrainian during the 20th century.
I don't like Putin. I've no time for him.
However I am very opposed to what the USA has been doing in Ukraine. It's clear that their influence is malign. Instead of helping Ukraine they spent $5 billion undermining the government in 2013-14. There has been a clear policy to try to tear Ukraine away from Russia and towards NATO. I don't think this is sensible or helpful. It is quite clear for example that the USA has encouraged Ukraine not to implement the Minsk accords. They have treated them as merely a ceasefire and refused to do anything.
It is also obvious that Putin has been very frustrated by this over the past few years. He set out some proposals at the end of last year which received pretty much a flat no. It is clear that he feels the USA is not keeping to the post cold war agreements, but is advancing its influence country by country.
To me the biggest rogue state is the USA. It's untrustworthy. Look at Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan. These are all countries the USA has largely destroyed over the last 20 years. The USA jumps in and out of agreements at will. Look at the Iran joint comprehensive plan of action.
Literally the only way to have a long term agreement with the USA is to completely subordinate yourself to its demands like the UK has done. We don't really have a foreign policy worthy of the name since we left the EU. It a few pilots flying drones over Syria and sending an empty aircraft carrier to the South China Sea.
So I don't think either side has anything like a monopoly on being wrong. They actually need to agree on where they want to be in 20 years time and work to get there.
And I think suggesting Russia was barbaric while Kyiv was a major city is childish. That's not what I expect from diplomats. Even (especially) if they think it is true. It's not funny or clever.
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Post by Faceless on Feb 23, 2022 22:37:07 GMT
We need Gavin Williamson back. He'd sort this out. Tell Russia to shut up again. Problem solved
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Post by Felice Landry on Feb 23, 2022 22:41:03 GMT
This reminds me I want to talk about a film I saw over the weekend, I'll save it for tomorrow but as a taster this is the last thing they did before dying at the age of 46, It's called "Ohayo", the animation is wonderful.
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Post by lazybones on Feb 23, 2022 22:50:42 GMT
About Kosovo … (and the article I posted)
I know almost none of the history of Yuogoslavia. But saying the article is wrong because Yugoslavia was not a great place to live misses the point, I think.
The west, or at least, the U.S. recognised Kosovo, as a breakaway state, and applauded its assertion of independence. But when Donestsk and Luhansk do the same they’re seen as Russian puppets and a crime against Ukraine. But really, you could say that all they’ve done is to not recognise the post-coup government following 2014.
The 2014 coup, and its legitimacy / illegitimacy (having overturned a democratically elected government) seems to have muddied the waters incredibly but it isn’t often mentioned in the ‘explanations’ of the situation you read.
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Post by MrTiddles on Feb 23, 2022 22:50:44 GMT
Can I be a Dwarf Wizard? I can also do a mean David Bowie impersonation and I dance like James Brown. What's not to like? A “Dwarf Wizard”? Listen to yourself… Dramnir. Are you you saying he doesn't exist?
A new low.
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Post by Sheep2 on Feb 23, 2022 22:50:47 GMT
Bit cheeky. can we have pictures of a U.S. city from that time? Any one will do. As Russia's current Tsar, Putin, is basing his causus belli on the completely bogus claim that the Ukraine is historically part of Russia it isn't 'cheeky', but a reasonable rebuttal of that claim. As far as the age of American cities are concerned, I wasn't aware that the USA is seeking to annexe parts of the Ukraine. I am perplexed by your apparent defence of Putin's continued attempts to re-establish the Soviet empire... he is going to be the direct cause of many thousands of deaths, an entirely morally repugnant act. You are aware that Kiev (as it was) was controlled by Russia from 1667 onwards? Until 1917. Then from 1921-1941 and from 1944- 1991 it was part of the USSR. Kyivv was Russian longer than the U.S.A. has existed. It's clearly not a 'completely bogus' claim. It's also the case that the Russian state in the middle ages grew initially as a dependency of Kyiv. Their history is intertwined, complex and not entirely happy. Saying it is not 'completely bogus' is not agreeing with Putin. I think his claims are tendentious, and are clearly based on a very partisan Russian view of history. I completely understand why the Russian embrace is unwelcome in Kyiv. The twentieth century history of Ukraine was pretty bleak. However that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the large Russian speaking minority -which pre 2014 had supplied 2 of the last 3 governments of Ukraine. It won't happen again as the seizure of Crimea and the secession of parts of the east have massively tipped the voting balance. My belief is that the U.S. State Department behaviour under Victoria Nuland was reprehensible. By organizing the downfall of the government they precipitated an unnecessary crisis. Yes the government was shit, but then the pro-USA one pre 2010 was shit as well. Nuland is back at the state department under Biden and it lis little surprise that relations with Russia have taken a dive. |
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Post by lazybones on Feb 23, 2022 23:00:35 GMT
I had a delicious meal in a Russian restaurant tonight.
Boodiful.
But I’m not a Russian shill. Honest.
The Brexit Trolls were bad to the bone.
Alls I’m saying is - there is more than one side to this. Insane how one-sided a lot of the coverage seems to be.
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Post by lazybones on Feb 23, 2022 23:07:16 GMT
There’s someone in Newnight now saying Ukraine is a democracy and that we’re at risk of losing the world to authoritarianism.
The democratic (pro-Russian) government in Ukraine was overturned by a pro-western coup. Just feels like it’s brushed over.
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Post by lazybones on Feb 23, 2022 23:08:14 GMT
I’ve taken drink. There. I said it.
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Post by Chumbles on Feb 23, 2022 23:11:03 GMT
It's a bit more complex than that. Eastern Ukraine was part of Russia until Khrushchev transferred it in the 1960s. Until 2014 the population of the east was mostly Russian speaking. Entirely reasonable, and there's no question that American domestic politics has a very unhealthy impact on world policies - it's arguable that Putin has only become emboldened enough to carve out those provinces because of American-led withdrawal from Afghanistan. I believe that, for all the posturing there's no doubt that the EU, USA and UK are effectively prepared to accede to Russian demands for the Donetsk basin to become Russian client states. Why else have graded sanctions. Also that the Eastern Ukraine's majority is pro-Russian - Stalin's transportation of large numbers of the indigenous people of the Donetsk basin to the Urals and plantation of Russians into the Donetsk basin pre WWII is at the root of this. The 2010 election map reflects this (it pretty much maps onto whether the language predominantly spoken is Ukrainian or Russian: I am going to try and sleep... good night all. |
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Post by MrTiddles on Feb 23, 2022 23:39:44 GMT
Goodnight Mr C.
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Post by Ozymandias Kane on Feb 23, 2022 23:42:00 GMT
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Post by Shenguin on Feb 23, 2022 23:43:42 GMT
Dinner blog: chicken kyiv.
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Post by Sheep2 on Feb 23, 2022 23:51:49 GMT
One advantage Putin has is that though he is horribly corrupt he can run consistent policies. The USA particularly in the Trump period has not managed this. I'm concerned that Trump or any Republican may win in 2024 with a strongly isolationist stance.
This means that the Democrats have to tie the USA frmly back in to the international order before then. I don't see much evide of that. They ha managed to rstart the JCPOA with Iran, they are falling out with Russia and China. It's not so much that Biden is a bad person, but he is a largely ineffectual president so far. His one decent move - getting out of Afghanistan- was badly handled. It made him look both weak and untrustworthy the way it was done. I'm not impressed that he barely acknowledges the U.N. For all its weaknesses the U.N. represents the best opportunities for international agreements to combat climate change and reduce arms.
Another far right Republican could be disastrous. At least Trump was ineffective enough to stop his worst excesses. Someone more competent using the same ideas would risk breaking the system .
American exceptionalism needs to be dismantled not increased. The idea of a unipolar world with a Trump clone guided by MBS and Boris does not fill me full of joy.
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Post by Tuffers on Feb 23, 2022 23:57:11 GMT
Things were much simpler, and obviously better, when the map of the world was red and pink.
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